Episode 3: Redefining Education with AI: Vera Cubero on Project-Based Learning and Human Connection
Episode 3 of Kinwise Conversations · Hit play or read the transcript
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Lydia Kumar: Welcome to Kinwise Conversations, where we explore what it means to integrate AI into our work and lives with care, clarity, and creativity. Each episode we talk with everyday leaders navigating these powerful tools, balancing innovation with intention and technology with humanity. I'm your host, Lydia Kumar.
Today I'm truly honored to speak with Vera Cubero, the emerging technologies consultant for North Carolina Department of Instruction. Vera has been at the forefront of guiding educators through the complexity of AI and her journey offers valuable insight into how we can prepare our students and ourselves for an AI driven future.
Her work, and developing some of the nation's first AI guidelines for schools is both pioneering and profoundly important. Let's dive into our conversation.
Lydia Kumar: Okay. Vera, thank you so much for being here with me today. I am fangirling a little bit because I just think the work that you've done leading the way in North Carolina for AI and education is incredible and important, and I feel so very honored that you're willing to talk with me and tell me about your story.
I think I, I wanna start just by giving you some time to talk about yourself and your background and anything that's important for people to understand about who you are, as you. Talk about your journey in education and artificial intelligence. So just want to hand it over to you to talk a little bit about your story.
Vera Cubero: Well, thank you. Well, um, I, my name's Vera Cubero and I work for the North Carolina Department of Public Instruction. I'm currently the emerging technologies consultant with the department, and of course, right now the number one emerging technology is AI. And so I do a lot of work around AI. I was, um, the western region consultant, and I live in western North Carolina.
And so we have eight regions and I, I covered the, the western part of the region, but got heavily involved in the AI work and they. They saw it, it necessary to create a position just for that. So I've been doing this, this job for a year. I was the Reg Western region consultant for four. And so I've been with the state for five years.
But prior to that I was with, uh, Sylvania County Schools for 23 years, um, which is a small rural district in Western North Carolina. And I spent, uh, I did a little bit of everything there, substitute, then I became a. Teacher assistant in elementary while my children were real small. And then I was a classroom teacher for 14 years in middle school.
So I taught sixth, seventh, and eighth, um, English language arts and social studies. And, um, then I moved into. A, a position as an instructional technology facilitator. Um, in the early two thousands. You know, a lot of people may not remember. That may have been very small, but when the, when the internet started becoming mainstream, uh, it took like a decade for the internet to really, I.
Impact education where, you know, Chat GPT almost overnight did. But um, you know, when it finally became mainstream and became part of the learning experience, I just started realizing how impactful it was gonna be. And at the time, you know, I was still using overhead projectors and I. Writing on them with Vis-a-vis markers and writing on the whiteboard and things like that.
And had two old computers in the back of the room that we all shared. But it started becoming very obvious how impactful it was gonna be. So I went back to school, um, online and got a Master's in Instructional Technology in, uh, 2010. Graduated in 2012 with that. And within a year or two, I was able to get a position in my district as an instructional technology facilitator.
So I left the classroom, uh, I think it was 2013, 2014, that the dates kind of run together these days. But, and, uh, before that, um. Our district decided we had a really forward thinking, director of technology in our district, and she decided that she wanted to pilot a one-to-one classroom where, where we had, um, a set of computers and every kid, and it was also gonna be a paperless classroom.
And so I was pegged to, to do that pilot. And it was about the same time too, that. G Suite, which of course now is Google Workspace came out. And so we kind of piloted all of that together on a, uh, a cart of little, um, you know, little PC computers. They weren't like Chromebooks, as was before Chromebooks.
And of course they took about 10 minutes to start at they, they class. But it was a really good experience and you know, the technology was nothing like it is now, but we began to explore Google Drive a little bit, Google Docs and things like that, and how school could be done differently. And um, and um, there was a lot of really good things that happened in, in that time period and a lot of learning that went on.
And then the next year, I think it was around 2011, 2012, somewhere like that, that Chromebooks became kind of a thing. I. And of course, um, that they were much better. So we piloted that for a year and they, of course, you know, start up much faster. You don't have the 10 minute startup time and you know, the saving to the cloud instead of saving to the device.
It just simplified things a lot. Then we rolled out one-to-one, um, throughout the district in middle and high school the following year. So at that time, I moved into the instructional tech position, kind of helped lead that rollout to one-to-one. Did a lot of training on the, um, at that time it was Moodle, um, which now, you know, they're using Google Classroom canvas, things like that.
But. So I got really interested in technology and, and, and ever since then, you know, it's just been exponential how it's the potential that it's had to change education. But the reality is a lot of things didn't change as much as they should have. Um, there was a lot of substitution. If you think about like the SAMR model.
Um, you know, people were doing worksheets on the Chromebook instead of doing a paperwork sheet, things like that. But the, we weren't really moving up to that modification or, or, um, that, that final level, which the word is the, the R is leaving me right now, the word, but, uh, the redefinition level. Um, and, but you know.
You know, we had pockets of, of, of, of innovation places where that was changing. But, um, when I left the classroom was right in the middle, or when I left the district was right in the middle of Covid. And so of course then we were dealing with online education and our district was better situated than a lot of others.
But, you know, that came outta nowhere. And people who were really not even used to doing much online suddenly had to teach entirely online. And, and so, um, kind of led. Our district through that as well and then left in the middle of it and, and started leading that from a state level. And so, um. And that's a long story.
Um, to, to get to the part about AI is when I was with the district in about 2018, uh, ISTE had a class came, come out called, um, AI in Education. I think it was about 2018. I took that class and I thought then, wow, this is gonna be amazing. A few decades from now, you know, my great-great grandchildren, you know, this will really impact them.
And I had no idea within just a few short years that Chat GPT was gonna be. You know, unleashed and become part of the public consciousness and change everything the way that it, that it did. But whenever it came out, you know, I, I dove in immediately, um, and started learning about it and, um, spent a lot of time just learning how to interact with it.
And at the, you know, the time I was amazed, but thinking back now, uh, to what it was like, you know, almost three years ago now, it. You know, it was horrible, you know, compared to what it, um, you know, and everybody said then this is the worst AI you're ever gonna have. And, and, um, but just the exponential rate of change and the rate of progress since then has really blown me away.
Blown everybody away, I think. But I think it also. Really, it really necessitates change in how we do education, because I don't wanna see a similar thing that happened with the Chromebooks where they're just, where AI is just used as a substitution level. It needs, we need to get up to that, you know, redefinition level with AI.
And in some places we never really got there with the Chromebooks, you know, there's, you know, it didn't really change. Um. How students learn and, and you know, it just changed, you know, the, the mode of learning what they were doing it on. And so I'm really, you know, that's my thinking now is, is, is how can we guide the state to do that?
And then, you know, because of the online environment, of course, it's beyond the state, you know, also impacting others outside of the state as well. So that's a long answer, but
Lydia Kumar: It's so cool to hear about that transition and how you were able to see technology happen slowly. And then also Chat GPT. I remember the first time I used it, my brother showed me in 2022 on Thanksgiving and it felt kind of gimmicky and now it's such a dynamic tool.
It's really incredible to think about that progress. You talked about redefinition and you told the story of how you have worked with Chromebooks and one-to-one programming in schools, and then we talked about redefinition for Chat GPT, and you kind of made this comparison between what you saw teachers doing with Chromebooks and what you, what you're seeing now with Chat GPT in the classroom.
And so I'm curious about an example of some of the best use of Chromebooks that you've seen and how that redefined what learning looks like. So instead of a P worksheet, what does a real meaningful learning experience look like in that way?
Vera Cubero: Some of the best work I did in the classroom, it did involve the Chromebooks, but the Chromebooks were like a tool. They weren't like the main thing. Um, and so, and honestly it was project-based learning, which is something I'm a big proponent of now and we'll talk about more later. But I, I, I did a collaborative unit with a, I was a social studies teacher at the time and did a collaborative unit with a science teacher in seventh grade.
And. What we did is we gave the students a, they had to pick from a list of world of world problems. We were talking about the UN sustainability goals and environmental disasters, and they had to choose one and devise a solution for it.
And so the objective was. To devise a, a solution for a problem. The Chromebooks were a tool that they used to research and to create their presentations and to share with. They weren't, it wasn't like we were giving them a worksheet on, you know, environmental disasters and then they just had to use that to answer the questions.
And so I think that kind of. Demonstrates the difference, um, in them, but it's more that the pedagogical approach was very different. It was, uh, very student centered. They got to choose their own project, their own work group, their own solutions. They actually modeled and made models for them, and then we had, I.
People from the community, from the soil and water division, and different people come in and see their presentations, their pitches that they did, and then judge them. And, and so the, the whole approach was very, very different. And that was right before I left the classroom. And it was right after I got introduced to project based learning.
And it was the best thing I ever did. And it almost made me sad to leave because I wanted to pursue that and, and move further down that road and. And that was the, the only one that I got to do. But, so that's an example. And then when you think about AI, it's the same way. Like, um, when we first started training, uh, the summer of 2023, I started doing a lot of workshops on AI for teachers, and they were called the, the power of the prompt.
And it was basically about what we called then prompt engineering. I, I call prompting now, but just teaching teachers how to interact and engage with the models and. As a, you know, at that time as an entryway to get teachers excited about it. It was all about efficiency, saving time, because that's number one commodity that teachers need is more time.
And that was a great entryway and got teachers really, really excited about it, about ways they can save time, they can make all their lessons faster. They can use it as a brainstorm partner, use it to personalize, use it to. Meet individual needs and all of that. But now we, we have to move beyond that because now, I mean, at that time, you know, it wasn't even really in the, in the plan for students to start using it anytime soon because there's so many security concerns.
But you know, here we are now and it's. Everywhere. It's on every device, it's in every app. It's, you know, it's, uh, it's a reality now that we can't avoid that students are gonna use it. And so I wanna make sure that teachers are not just using it to make better worksheets or to devise their lessons, that they're actually teaching students how to interact with it.
Effectively and ethically, but also to use it to kind of enhance their own thinking and their own creativity. And it would go, um, it marries very nicely with project based learning though. So AI enabled project based learning, I think is, um, something that, that, that needs to become kind of mainstream in education along with learning portfolios.
Instead of just these snapshoting time assessments, we need to students that are. That are creating learning portfolios that show the progress that they're making and where they're actually, analyzing on a meta a level, they're learning progress over time and having some student agency about what's in them.
And so I think those two things together can really transform education, um, to meet the moment that we're in. Um, and so I'd like to see more of that.
Lydia Kumar: That is so powerful, Vera. I think a lot about how education, like the students and the educational experiences that students have carry into the adults that they become.
And so, you know, I used to also be a teacher and I taught sixth grade English for a while, Vera. So we have, we have that in common. But now I work for, um, a business and so I'm working with adults and I. I think a lot about how the students that I taught and how those students then grow and join the workforce, and how the people that I work with used to be students and how I feel this kind of through line between my work as a teacher and my work as a leader in an organization.
And so. When you were talking about the importance of project-based learning, it made me think about how project-based learning actually mirrors some of the things that you do at work. And so your UN project feels like there are so many important skills that we need people to have as they grow into the next generation of people who create and work and do the things that need to be done in the world.
And the same thing with AI. Like how do we teach people how to use this tool in a way that we feel good about in the next, you know. 10, 20 years when so much change is happening. Those examples feel, feel really powerful to me.
Vera Cubero: I agree completely. I mean, it has really opened up possibilities for solving some of the major world issues that we have.
But our students are gonna be the ones in the future that are gonna have to be the solvers. They're gonna have to be the ones that are coming up with the solutions and finding answers. But the AI gives them. The potential to actually do it. Like we could actually, um, I forget who said it. Um, a doctor that I follow on X, when he looked at the new Google's Co-scientist tool that's in beta, he said that, you know what, what he saw convinced him that, we will have a cure for cancer in the next decade. Mean things like that that are possible. They've never been possible before, but our students are the future and they're gonna be the ones that that need to know how to use AI to get to those solutions. And you know, there's a, also the concern about. It, it is powerful and like all powerful things that can be used for bad or good.
And so we wanna make sure that we shape our students in a way that they will use it to shape the future and make it better, um, and use it ethically and use it for, for the, for the human good.
Lydia Kumar: I've been thinking a lot about human-centered AI and using AI wisely and how it's not a replacement for people.
It's a tool and it's something that people need to use with intention. And when you use a tool intentionally and with purpose, that can lead to really good outcomes. And if you're just throwing things into a tool, who knows what will happen. I think with the internet and with computers, we've seen a lot of good, and we've also seen harm.
Harm done, and I think it's, it's like you're saying in the classroom where so much. Of who these students become, happens in schools. And so the thinking and purpose, the way teachers teach, it's just, it's always important, but it feels extra important right now with this technological innovation that's gonna have a huge impact on how students engage, uh, engage in the workforce once they graduate.
Vera Cubero: Yeah, well, it's an, and it's a difficult time for teachers on so many fronts.
I mean, in so many ways. And so I hate to, you know, add more stress to them, but I really feel like that, that we've got to prioritize this training in schools. It's, it, it's got to be shifted up the priority level because of the pace of change and the way things are happening. But I feel like some other things need to be taken off the plate.
I really like for us as a nation and. States and districts to completely re-envision our assessment, um, practices. You know, they spend so much time assessing and then preparing for the assessments, but the assessments don't mirror real world but as a teacher, you know that a lot is writing on those assessments and it puts a lot of stress on them. And then that downward pressure to the students and the families and, and so the whole system needs to be, uh, evaluated and re-envisioned. Um. So that, so that teachers have the freedom and, and the, you know, and feel like they can actually explore some of these ideas without worrying about test scores and the impact it has on them and their careers or, you know, that kind of thing.
Lydia Kumar: Absolutely, and it feels like AI is a tool that could help facilitate some of these changes, right? Like multiple choice questions are an easy way to grade. You can put 'em through a Scantron or you can use a digital tool to quickly assess, but we're not limited to that anymore. So I think there's some exciting ways we could move toward assessing that isn't so time consuming for teachers, but is actually more productive for a student.
So I'm excited, but I also know that the. That change takes time. These are huge, and it's very easy to talk about these things, but it can be challenging to make changes happen in practice, especially because we've done things a certain way for a very long time.
Vera Cubero: Mm-hmm. And they take, um, you know, vision and leadership. And you know, things in government and education move so glacially slow and this is, you know, this since 2022. This stuff is just, the technology is just growing exponentially. I. Almost do it full time and I can't keep up with all of the new tools and all the new capabilities that are coming out and the new capabilities change the way we're using AI.
Also like the new multimodal and very human-like emotive capabilities. Um. Uh, Harvard, I think it was Harvard Business Review, put out a study last week and said that the number one use case in 2025 for generative AI now is for companionship and, uh, counseling or um, therapy. And so that wouldn't have happened two years ago because it didn't have those emotive capabilities.
And of course, that introduces all new concerns in education for our students because we need to make sure they have the. Basic understanding of AI, AI literacy, what it is and what it's not. And they understand it's not human because the tools are, are already to that level, you know, whether we're ready for it or not.
And our students are not really equally prepared. And I think we completely bombed with social media. We just didn't prepare our students for that at all. And it was so taboo in schools. Um. That, you know, we've, we've seen the effects of that, you know, the disastrous effects of that on our young people.
And I just want us to be a little more forward thinking and ahead of the curve this time.
Lydia Kumar: And you are one of the leaders that is having an impact right now. So let's talk about the, the AI guidelines. Um, North Carolina was one of the first states in the nation to have guidelines and, and things are changing quickly, but there are guidelines and they do exist.
So I would love to hear about how those came into being and your role in that.
Vera Cubero: Well, I've already talked about kind of my role with, um, learning IT and training teachers in the summer 2023, and.
Around the same time my, um, our, she was our director of, uh, digital teaching and learning. Then now she's the, the CIO of her state, but she was in Washington DC for something congressional hearing or something. And, um, at that time, New York, I. City and others were banning, uh, the tools, uh, for schools, telling 'em they couldn't use them.
And somebody asked her was she gonna ban them in North Carolina? And, um, her name's Dr. Vanessa Ren. And she told them no, that, you know, she realized that our students really need to learn to use these tools, that it's gonna really impact the future. And she came back and, um, asked, uh, Dr. Ashley McBride, who is our director of, um, our digital learning initiative to set up a committee, uh, to study and to create AI guidelines.
And so we started that in the summer of 2023. I. I was asked to be on the committee because I had done a lot of work with training and uh, things like that and had developed a lot of content already. And so we started meeting, um, we included people from our data privacy, K-12 cybersecurity, our exceptional children, um, career and technical education.
You know, kind of got a wide, wide range of people from across the agency to work together on it. And, um, I just kind of. You know, we all, we all contributed and got a draft going, and I just kind of became the, the main editor in chief because I had. Done so much and created so much already that I had been using to train teachers.
And so, um, I just kind of took it and fused everybody's ideas together and kinda, um, published it. And a lot of my content ended up in it because I had already created the content and everybody liked it. So we, you know, worked on that for a few months. It was constant. It was a lot of work.
But we got it passed in January of 2024 and uh, it was the fourth state in the nation. And I was honestly very, very surprised. I'm very critical, I guess, of myself. And so I was never happy with it. I was never ready, like it was good enough, but the, the response was phenomenal. I was just amazed at how many people, you know, really were impressed by it.
People like Pat Young, pr code.org. Stefan Bouchard from, um, AI Disrupted and several other people, Amanda Bickerstaff from AI for Education and, and. Lots of other people began reaching out, and I think that helped a lot of people. And we started just trying to, of course, uh, you know, spread the word in North Carolina and make sure that all of our districts were aware of it.
And, um, you know, following up, trying to, to do the, the hard work after that of, of implementing, but. That's kind of how it came about. And we are working on a, and we've had several updates, like small updates over the course of the time, just as little things have changed, but the technology has changed so much in the last few months that it really needs, um, another complete update just because the capabilities are more than I ever would've imagined a year and a half ago.
And as I said, that changes the way people use it. That changes the way education, um, needs to use it. And so we are working on a version two, a 2.0 version that will come out in the fall, um, as well with some updated, some of the graphics will be updated, some of the guidance will be updated, but mostly just, um, reflecting the new capabilities of the models.
Lydia Kumar: There's been so much change so quickly, and it's, I'm always wondering, you know, what, what will this look like in five years? What does the future look like? Because the last three years have been incredible in, in terms of how much progress there's been making, and it'll be interesting to see what that looks like.
And I'm also excited about your fall version of these AI guidelines. I can't wait to check them out. It's so cool that you're working, you're working on that and that you've been able to develop. And introduce these guidelines to teachers and educators and state leaders, um, and, and helping them to be able to take those guidelines and then apply them.
I'm curious, what do you think are the mindset shifts that you see people needing to make right now to, to take these guidelines and move them from a document to a reality?
Vera Cubero: Well, the biggest one is, is just that acceptance. Um, you know, um, somebody else I follows, um, Mike, uh, Kents, he actually has a, a framework where he, who he likens, um, adapting to AI to the five stages of grief. And I think there's a lot of, uh. In that, because first of all, we've got the teachers, uh, and not so many of them now, um, but a year or so ago, you know, a lot of people who just didn't want to accept that it was here and that it was going to impact them and that they had to, uh, learn.
So I think most people have moving beyond that, but now it's just kind of beyond the acceptance. They're, they're just like, well, how do I do this? You know, how do we teach now when our students have these powerful tools at their fingertips that can. Produce an essay in a few seconds. Now along, uh, you know, with the new deep research tools, they can have it, uh, you know, footnoted in, uh, in wor in citations with MLA or whatever they want, the research for them and everything.
Um, you know, so teachers are really just struggling. What does this look like in the classroom? Everybody keeps talking about how we need to teach students how to use it responsibly, but how do you do that while still having academic integrity and making sure that the students are actually learning and that just looks completely different than it did 10 years ago?
Um, because, you know, assigning essays, assigning, you know, questions, you know, of course people have been able, kids, kids have been able to Google things for a long time. And so the, the rote memorization has been. Mute for a long time. A lot of people haven't ever accepted that, but it just, it just changes everything about how you have to, uh, adapt instruction.
And so a lot of people, uh, a lot of teachers, you know, have just have to start coming to terms with that. You can't just do things the same way you've always done them. Um, there's the, the whole, the, not just the assessment, but the whole teaching and learning has to change. Mm-hmm. As I've already said, I'm a huge proponent of project-based learning and learning portfolios, and I really believe that that is the future of education if we wanna remain relevant and prepare students for the future, um,
first of all, they, they will, students will be able to learn the content. There are ways to actually learn the standard course of study through those, but they'll reinforce the durable skills that all the companies in the world repeatedly say are what they're looking for. The collaboration, communication, critical thinking, um, creativity.
Learners, mindset, all of those things. If you look at, you know, World Economic Forum, Forbes, Microsoft, LinkedIn, any of the studies out there on the job for job, uh, front, they all say that's what employers want. Nobody says they want students who made a three on an EOG or a whatever level on A SAT. Um, and so.
By, by giving students that student agency to kind of decide, uh, some of the parameters around what they're learning or how they're going to learn, and then having some, some, um, choice in the method of learning that I. What they're learning, how they learn it, um, how they present their learning, and then helping them to learn to analyze the actual process of learning instead of just focusing on the end result.
The end product of learning is, is really gonna be the only way I think that we can stay relevant with the, the AI revolution that we're in and, and the, and the future potential where it doesn't show any signs of slowing down because the. The hope of being able to prevent students from using these tools is, quickly fell away if you're paying attention, because they're literally everywhere.
Um, a student's phone could have eight to 10, um, different generative AI apps that can do the work or more, I mean, dozens. Every single app pretty much has generative AI in it. You know, it's, it's in Google, it's in the Microsoft work suite. It, it, it's just literally everywhere now, even in the search search engines.
And so. I just think it's really important that people are open to accepting that and starting to look at how to shift what they're doing, um, to, to include more student agency I mean instead of big summative assessments needs to be like micro formative assessments throughout the way where something as simple as just having a conversation with a student about what did you learn today?
You know, what's your plan going forward? And kind of checkins and things like that, which in my opinion, actually make teachers' jobs a lot easier. Because the students will be doing most of the work, and the teacher will just be kind of managing it instead of having to be the one to be up there in front of the students all day.
Um, you know, importing, you know, exporting knowledge to them that, that you expect them just to sit and take in, which of course, they're not doing anyway, but. But it is, it is a mind shift and it is, um, something that has a lot of, uh, teachers nervous and, and worried and, and so I think we need to help them with that.
That needs to be our biggest focus going forward is helping them to see how, how this change, how this changes what you do in the classroom and what does this look like in your, your particular context, whatever that is, at whatever grade level or curriculum area.
Lydia Kumar: Right, because it's, it is scary to have this huge change, especially for people who have been experts in their craft, and there's a very disruptive technology that they have to learn to use.
It's, it's scary. I had a conversation a couple of weeks ago with a teacher who expressed some fear of like being replaced or. The value of teachers being lessened if there's a public perception that these tools can do a job of a teacher for them. But I keep thinking the job of a teacher cannot be replaced because of the importance of the human interaction.
You can't, you know, generate AI is not a person and it can't read the room. If you've been in a classroom with all those children, you know how important it is to be able to know who they are and design learning experiences that can help them move forward. And teaching is so much more than creating a worksheet.
It's thinking about. How do you, how do you help the person right in front of you? What do they need to learn? What do we need to become and how do I shape that journey alongside the people who are right in front of me? And I think things like project-based learning like you were talking about, or those conversations feel like a powerful way to be able to do that.
Vera Cubero: Yeah, I agree. I mean, and I really do not think that that teachers will ever be replaced, but I do think that, that we do have to accept that, you know, that human part of teaching is what is gonna keep teachers relevant. It's that, that making the connections with the students, um, the nuance, the understanding of, of the situations that AI cannot do.
But being able to come alongside them. And it's difficult, I know because I was a social studies teacher and as well as a English teacher and you know, some, some people really like being up there and having all that knowledge, but instead of doing that, you gotta come along and guide them and help them kind of discover the knowledge on their own.
It's a whole different, um, different way of looking at it. But I do think that's what's gonna keep schools relevant is there's so many students and so many, um, kids that. That school is our safe place. It's like the haven. It's where they go to feel loved and welcomed and accepted and understood. And, um, we need to make sure that we, that we maintain that that human relationship part of the component, even as the other things change and as the job role changes from more of a sage on the stage to like a guide on the side kind of.
A coach, mentor, I do think the role's gonna change. What it's gonna look like is gonna change. If we're gonna stay relevant though, because if we keep doing, you know, 19th century industrial style education, students are going to leave in droves. Uh, homeschooling is already booming. All these charter schools and private schools and online schools.
And so we've got to keep, um, that relationship, that human. Piece at the center of it, of our public schools to keep the students coming there because our, our, our public schools also are, are, are gonna be. crucial in making sure to prepare all students for this, uh, future job impact that it's gonna have on our, especially our lower socioeconomic students.
You know, it's going to create millions of new jobs. It's gonna displace millions of jobs, and I. Those students that are not prepared for that are gonna suffer. And a lot of our students who are, who already have the most roadblocks in front of them, um, will suffer more if we don't prepare them for this and, and make sure that they leave school AI fluent and ready to join the workforce and work alongside AI.
And so I think schools are, are more important than ever. Um, teachers are more important than ever, but we have to change our thinking about the role of a teacher.
Lydia Kumar: Absolutely. And you said something about maybe making teachers work easier down the road. Once we figure out how to make this change and. It's true. We can't keep piling more and more and more on our teachers. There has to be this deep shift in how we do things. I've been thinking about that a lot lately.
It's, we can't do things the way that we've been doing them in work or in education because the process itself needs to change. Like. The workflows, there's trade-offs now between how you're spending your time. Maybe you don't need to spend three hours grading, but you could spend three hours doing something else.
That feels really important for those relationships and helping students, particularly those students who are very at risk and at risk of being left behind. Based on their, the roadblocks that they have, so that, that resonates so strongly with me. Vera, I had a little bit of chills when I was thinking about some of the most at risk students that exist in our education system and just how critical this is gonna be to get right for them, and they deserve that.
Vera Cubero: Yeah, and I'm, you know, of course concerned with all marginalized students. I live in a very rural area, um, a lot of poverty. And, um, same thing with the inner cities and all of that, that, that are any of our marginalized groups, you know, we've got to make sure we, that they get equal access. Um, that it's not based on your zip code or your, you know, and same thing.
This is, this is technology that can be life changing for students with disabilities as well. And. Even though we're almost three, three years in, we have, uh, teachers who are advocating for students to use large language models as like part of an IEP, and they're not being allowed to. And so a lot of things have to shift because if you think about a student who has a text disability, how helpful it can be to use a.
One of these tools that dictates so well that you can dictate and speak for you and speak to you. I remember, you know, years ago I had a brilliant student who was the most dyslexic person I'd ever known. And you know, at that time, you know, we had something called Dragon Speak Freely, which now is just absolutely archaic, but it was something that, that he could dictate to and that could speak to him.
And now we have this technology that's. So powerful, but students are not being allowed to use it. And students that could really equal the playing field for them. Um, and so I think we have to think about all of those groups of students and make sure that we're, that we're using it to meet their needs and allowing them to learn about it and prepare for their futures.
Lydia Kumar: Right. And being able to speak and have your words written for you, using a tool like that is something every working adult will have access to now and in the future. And so the value proposition is gonna change. There's not gonna be as much value in being able to type things and spell correctly and all those things.
Um, I'm not saying that they don't have value, but the way that we use those things is going to change because. We have tools that allow us to do speech to text and to be able to, to get our ideas on paper in a new way.
Vera Cubero: Yeah.
Lydia Kumar: Okay. So we are coming to toward the end of, of our interview, and I have a couple of last questions. The first one I have is about schools, and if you could give every school one AI related gift, what would it be?
Vera Cubero: For me, it would be the, the funding and the time to really have good high quality, ongoing job embedded professional development on AI and how to implement it safely and effectively and, um, transformatively.
In their classroom in order for that to happen, it would, it needs to be ongoing, as I said, and it also needs to have, you know, the follow-up support and, uh, the professional learning communities where they're coming together and discussing, uh, their, their struggles, their triumphs, and sharing with each other.
I think a lot of people still think of this as something they can just. Squeeze into an hour that ends up being 45 minutes at the beginning of the year and just kind of check the box off. You know that, okay, now you're trained on AI and it just doesn't work that way. And, um, it needs to be prioritized in, in ways that it's not in most places and it needs to be supported in ways that it's not.
We are seeing a lot of. Cuts to positions like the positions that typically would provide that ongoing support, digital learning facilitators, media coordinators, and so it's getting kind of relegated to just one of those check off the box to meet compliance kind of thing. And, and that's just not ever gonna work for the technology as transformative and as fast-paced and, and changing as this is that that's not ever gonna work.
And so I think if we provided that for teachers, we would see that it would take a lot of their load off and really, really rise it to the level that it needs to be, um, in priority.
Lydia Kumar: Amazing. Yeah, it really struck me when you said ongoing, because even if you have a very intensive training at the beginning of the year, three months later, you may have a totally different technology.
So it matters to be able to continually come back with your peers and talk about what you're seeing.
Vera Cubero: Yeah, it does. And just, you know, knowing how to do it, how to click the button, how to put a prompt in, you know, and like I learn things every day and I've been using it daily for, I.
You know, going on three years. And so you're, it is a constant learning curve. You know, learn more about prompting, you get new examples, new tools, and so it really needs to have that ongoing support and you'll improve, um, over time as well in your results. And, and. How you use it, you'll find out new things.
And just having a community to share that with is very powerful. Um, my community's on like LinkedIn and Substack and X and you know, and so I learned from that. But a lot of teachers, you know, their community is in their school and that needs to be where they're, they're allowed to engage in learn and explore more, having the freedom to do that as well.
Lydia Kumar: Okay. I have one last question. What is the question or idea about AI that you cannot stop thinking about?
Vera Cubero: Well, I think we've, we've covered it a lot already, but, um, that idea of how do we make sure those lower socioeconomic students are not, um, handicapped, uh, going forward in the, in the economic boom that's coming?
How do we make sure that, that they have equal opportunity to, because I think this is the kind of technology that can rise a lot of people out of. Poverty. Um, it can give people the ability to, to pull themselves outta poverty like we've never had before. But our public schools are our grade equalizers.
They're gonna have to be our grade equalizers here because a lot of the students who are more, uh, fluent are going to have that instruction and that knowledge from home and other places, whether they get it at school or not. Um, but the students who need it the most are. Like not likely to get it unless they get it at school.
You know, they might learn things on TikTok and whatever, but those are generally gonna be the more harmful things of how to abuse it, how to use the technology to cheat, how to use it to create deep fakes and things like that. They're not gonna learn the effective and ethical use of it and the way to use it to transform and enhance their own learning if they don't get it at school.
Um, and so I think that that's the question that keeps me up at night is how do we do that? And. In most states, like, you know, there's not, we have a lot of local control, and so districts choose. What they want to focus on and prioritize. And, um, in a lot, in most cases, I'm a big fan of local control, but I think in this case there are too many people that don't understand the impact and the, and the future of what's gonna happen.
And so we're allowing people to make that choice and they're choosing not to prioritize it. And those students are gonna suffer. And so how do we fix that? I know, you know now with, with a national executive order, um, I'm hoping that will kind of move the needle a little. I've seen a little movement, but we don't know the details of what that's gonna look like yet.
But I think states need to do something similar, unfortunately, to really make it, to make it happen and make it matter to everybody and make sure that all schools and all students have equal access.
Lydia Kumar: What a powerful and enlightening conversation with Vera Cubero. Her dedication to ensuring that AI serves as a tool for equity in deeper learning in our schools is truly inspiring.
The emphasis on project-based learning, the development of durable skills and the critical need for ongoing professional development for teachers. Really highlights the thoughtful human-centered approach we need as AI becomes more integrated into education. A huge thank you to Vera for sharing her invaluable experience and vision with us.
Prepare to expand your thinking even further in our next episode as I talk with Docs Brown, a strategist and epistemic architect who challenges us to consider the very nature of knowledge, language, and humanity in the age of AI.
If Vera's passion for redefining learning sparked your interest, Docs will take you on a profound exploration of what learning itself might become. And if you're thinking about how guidelines and practical adoption intersect, as Vera discussed, you might find interesting parallels in my conversation with Travis Packer on organizational AI strategies.
Lydia Kumar: I hope this discussion has encouraged you wherever you are on your own AI path. If you enjoyed this conversation, please subscribe and consider leaving a review.
It truly helps other thoughtful listeners find us. You can learn more about how to approach AI with intention, explore resources, and join the Kinwise Collective by visiting kinwise.org. And if you or someone you know is doing interesting work at the intersection of AI and humanity and has a story to share, we'd love to hear from you. Until next time, stay curious, stay grounded, and stay Kinwise.
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1. For Designing a Project-Based Learning Unit
Act as an instructional design coach. I am a [Your Grade Level and Subject] teacher inspired by the idea of "AI-enabled project-based learning."
Help me design a unit where students must solve a real-world problem related to [Your Topic, e.g., 'local water quality'].
Please structure your response to include:
A list of the key stages for the project, from initial inquiry to final presentation.
Specific examples of how students could use AI as a tool for research and brainstorming.
At least three ideas for an authentic final assessment that is not a traditional essay.
2. For Creating a Proposal for Professional Development
Act as a school administrator writing a proposal to the district. I need to advocate for funding for "high-quality, ongoing, job-embedded professional development" on AI for our teachers.
Draft a persuasive proposal that includes the following sections:
An introduction explaining why a single, one-off workshop is insufficient for a technology as transformative as AI.
A description of what an effective, year-long professional development program would look like, including elements like peer learning communities and coaching.
A concluding statement that connects this investment directly to student equity and future-readiness.
3. For Developing a Classroom AI Policy
I am a teacher preparing for the new school year. Help me draft a clear and positive "Classroom AI Usage Charter" to co-create with my students. The goal is not to ban AI, but to promote its ethical and effective use.
The charter should include sections covering:
When AI is a helpful collaborator (e.g., brainstorming, summarizing research, practicing concepts).
When using AI would defeat the purpose of a learning activity (e.g., writing a personal reflection, creative writing from scratch).
Our class standard for acknowledging and citing AI's contribution to our work.
4. For Shifting to Authentic Assessment
I am a [Your Subject] teacher who wants to move away from traditional tests for my unit on [Your Unit Topic, e.g., 'The American Revolution'].
Help me re-envision the final assessment for this unit. Please provide the following:
Brainstorm three distinct assessment options that would allow students to demonstrate their understanding through creation and analysis (e.g., a learning portfolio entry, a debate, a multimedia presentation).
For each option, include a brief explanation of how it would assess the "durable skills" of communication, collaboration, and critical thinking.
5. For Student Use as a 'Solutions' Partner
I want to create a prompt for my students to use with a chatbot. The prompt should position AI as a "brainstorming partner" for solving a major global issue, inspired by the UN Sustainability Goals.
Please draft a student-facing prompt that asks the AI to help them with the following tasks:
Research and summarize the root causes of the problem of [Problem, e.g., 'food insecurity'].
Brainstorm a list of at least five innovative, technology-driven solutions to this problem.
Identify the key stakeholders (e.g., governments, companies, non-profits) they would need to persuade to implement their single best idea.
